----
Some comments by Modern Antagonistics from conversations;
'This will just start off as something a few of us get engaged in, to
test our skills and keep us mentally and physically fit; nothing
official, and nothing charging money (anyone involved can split the gym
costs etc., but nothing more)'
...
'It won't be 'THE Official Competitive Bartitsu' or anything, just real, competitive sparring and testing.
Rules?
I reckon we'll more develop a kind of format. Some people (understandably) will want to go lighter or restrict things- and that's cool. Others might want to go hard, with few rules- but testing a particular aspect of the Bartitsu art. For instance, stick versus unarmed (for the fast/brave!), or boxer versus jujitsu. I think the point is to get people who are up for open experimenting and 'just having a go', rather than setting down formal rules or an 'official' organisation...
Anything goes, as long as both competitors agree! Emoticono smile
and shake hands afterwards...'
...
'The street self defence aspect is one I personally keep central (when I train or have trained boxing, wrestling, judo, savate and cane fighting etc., I always focus more on what skills would transfer to my real survival, rather than just 'winning the game').
This is an aspect that will require a lot of thought, experimentation and 'tweaking'.
One game that could be useful (and a start) is where one person has to stop the other person from leaving the room, using only wrestling/jujitsu, and the other person has to escape using only wrestling/jujitsu.
The time limit could be 1 minute.
If the person escapes, they can consider they have escaped to safety, and if the other person STOPS the person escaping, they can consider that they have held a criminal until help arrives.
Just an idea (I think it puts the 'game' in some sort of context, though.
Another one is where one person has a marker pen (representing a knife) and the other has a coat over one arm and a boxing glove on the other hand. If the 'knifeman' can mark the other person, they have won- and obviously the other person needs to stop this happening. Short rounds, and specific goals for each combatant can make these 'games' more relevant to self defence. There is no limit to the possibilities; only that they stay within the context of self defence, Bartitsu's philosophy and technical base, and real resistance, competition and contact.'
...
'Also, events/challenges should change and SURPRISE people (like the real world does!), and not just become pure sport/ Victorian MMA...'
Modern Antagonistics' reply to a comment- ' It's basically down to each individual to decide what they are keen/prepared to do. If a person just wants some exercise and to 'play' at semi-contact, that's fine (as long as everyone's clear what it is and what it isn't). Clearly, an extremely limited rules fight has value; but within a tactical context- a match fight in a gym with no time limits- where each person consensually wants to fight to a decisive win- is not the same as if I'm threatened in the street. Escaping has to be something that we prioritise, and hardly anyone really does this in training (I do). You say 'no rules', but we can't honestly bite or gouge full on, and I was involved in an incident when I was homeless where someone had their head stamped on just once and they later died from the brain injury- and I at least don't want to see people hurt any more than is necessary to prove our skills and mindset. The point of some rules (whilst there are none in 'the street') is that it lets you go full out, no holding back within those rules, to escape, knock out, dissuade/deter, throw, restrain or choke the other person ('tap outs' generally aren't for life-or-death combat, but neither can you reasonably break someone's arm in a club competition- unless you have an endless supply of students with no care for their personal wellbeing...). I appreciate (and welcome) people's thoughts, though Emoticono smile '
Georges said, 'Ok it will be fun for sure but I think Bartitsu is a self defense system mostly' Modern Antagonistics replied, 'Hi George, how's it going? That's true. But you never know if you CAN fight, until you actually fight! Emoticono wink LOL Lots of people want/need self defence skills, but have never experienced someone really trying to hurt them. It's the overwhelming nature of the experience (or at least some of it) that people need to be familiar with, otherwise all of that practice hitting bags, pads and throwing compliant training partners will quite likely be useless. Additionally, lets not forget that not only were the members of the Bartitsu club competitive athletes, but that Barton-Wright organised challenge matches as part of Bartitsu. Bartitsu is based on (largely) boxing, jujitsu and cane fighting. Does anyone STILL really believe that it's possible to learn to box without boxing, or grapple without grappling, or stick fight without.........stick fighting?! LOL Self defence is primarily about avoiding/escaping and/or de-escalating conflict- but if it becomes a fight- you'd BETTER BE ABLE TO FIGHT! Emoticono wink'
Adam said, 'It would be interesting I think for your fighting defence to have someone attack with whatever they want as well. To mix it up.' Modern Antagonistics replied, 'I agree. Pick a weapon out of a dustbin (or even use the dustbin itself!) Emoticono wink'
A guy I spoke with is very keen on introducing an element of 'London Prize Ring'- inspired sparring/competition, with punches and standing grappling with throws (the LPR rules were slightly before the Bartitsu heyday, but the methods would still be known and perhaps even trained and taught by the boxers of the time. Any thoughts?).
I can understand his argument for it having self defence value (ie. avoiding the floor),
and I see that it could isolate certain elements of the boxing, wrestling and jujitsu (even kicks, if wanted).
The threat of grappling also maybe gives more of a reason for having the hands lower and milling (in the 'traditional' style), rather than the fights just becoming modern boxing or savate combat.
Perhaps a judogi, or other thick jacket could be worn (to allow more jujitsu technique)?
Then newaza/groundwork could be included as a separate thing (or mixed in, all depends on what people want and are prepared to do).
The format/s, like life (and Bartitsu?) itself, is still a work in progress.... Emoticono smile
I'm most keen to try and 'please everyone' to some degree with this, whatever their interest in Bartitsu, yet I know in practice that might be difficult!
...
'It won't be 'THE Official Competitive Bartitsu' or anything, just real, competitive sparring and testing.
Rules?
I reckon we'll more develop a kind of format. Some people (understandably) will want to go lighter or restrict things- and that's cool. Others might want to go hard, with few rules- but testing a particular aspect of the Bartitsu art. For instance, stick versus unarmed (for the fast/brave!), or boxer versus jujitsu. I think the point is to get people who are up for open experimenting and 'just having a go', rather than setting down formal rules or an 'official' organisation...
Anything goes, as long as both competitors agree! Emoticono smile
and shake hands afterwards...'
...
'The street self defence aspect is one I personally keep central (when I train or have trained boxing, wrestling, judo, savate and cane fighting etc., I always focus more on what skills would transfer to my real survival, rather than just 'winning the game').
This is an aspect that will require a lot of thought, experimentation and 'tweaking'.
One game that could be useful (and a start) is where one person has to stop the other person from leaving the room, using only wrestling/jujitsu, and the other person has to escape using only wrestling/jujitsu.
The time limit could be 1 minute.
If the person escapes, they can consider they have escaped to safety, and if the other person STOPS the person escaping, they can consider that they have held a criminal until help arrives.
Just an idea (I think it puts the 'game' in some sort of context, though.
Another one is where one person has a marker pen (representing a knife) and the other has a coat over one arm and a boxing glove on the other hand. If the 'knifeman' can mark the other person, they have won- and obviously the other person needs to stop this happening. Short rounds, and specific goals for each combatant can make these 'games' more relevant to self defence. There is no limit to the possibilities; only that they stay within the context of self defence, Bartitsu's philosophy and technical base, and real resistance, competition and contact.'
...
'Also, events/challenges should change and SURPRISE people (like the real world does!), and not just become pure sport/ Victorian MMA...'
Modern Antagonistics' reply to a comment- ' It's basically down to each individual to decide what they are keen/prepared to do. If a person just wants some exercise and to 'play' at semi-contact, that's fine (as long as everyone's clear what it is and what it isn't). Clearly, an extremely limited rules fight has value; but within a tactical context- a match fight in a gym with no time limits- where each person consensually wants to fight to a decisive win- is not the same as if I'm threatened in the street. Escaping has to be something that we prioritise, and hardly anyone really does this in training (I do). You say 'no rules', but we can't honestly bite or gouge full on, and I was involved in an incident when I was homeless where someone had their head stamped on just once and they later died from the brain injury- and I at least don't want to see people hurt any more than is necessary to prove our skills and mindset. The point of some rules (whilst there are none in 'the street') is that it lets you go full out, no holding back within those rules, to escape, knock out, dissuade/deter, throw, restrain or choke the other person ('tap outs' generally aren't for life-or-death combat, but neither can you reasonably break someone's arm in a club competition- unless you have an endless supply of students with no care for their personal wellbeing...). I appreciate (and welcome) people's thoughts, though Emoticono smile '
Georges said, 'Ok it will be fun for sure but I think Bartitsu is a self defense system mostly' Modern Antagonistics replied, 'Hi George, how's it going? That's true. But you never know if you CAN fight, until you actually fight! Emoticono wink LOL Lots of people want/need self defence skills, but have never experienced someone really trying to hurt them. It's the overwhelming nature of the experience (or at least some of it) that people need to be familiar with, otherwise all of that practice hitting bags, pads and throwing compliant training partners will quite likely be useless. Additionally, lets not forget that not only were the members of the Bartitsu club competitive athletes, but that Barton-Wright organised challenge matches as part of Bartitsu. Bartitsu is based on (largely) boxing, jujitsu and cane fighting. Does anyone STILL really believe that it's possible to learn to box without boxing, or grapple without grappling, or stick fight without.........stick fighting?! LOL Self defence is primarily about avoiding/escaping and/or de-escalating conflict- but if it becomes a fight- you'd BETTER BE ABLE TO FIGHT! Emoticono wink'
Adam said, 'It would be interesting I think for your fighting defence to have someone attack with whatever they want as well. To mix it up.' Modern Antagonistics replied, 'I agree. Pick a weapon out of a dustbin (or even use the dustbin itself!) Emoticono wink'
A guy I spoke with is very keen on introducing an element of 'London Prize Ring'- inspired sparring/competition, with punches and standing grappling with throws (the LPR rules were slightly before the Bartitsu heyday, but the methods would still be known and perhaps even trained and taught by the boxers of the time. Any thoughts?).
I can understand his argument for it having self defence value (ie. avoiding the floor),
and I see that it could isolate certain elements of the boxing, wrestling and jujitsu (even kicks, if wanted).
The threat of grappling also maybe gives more of a reason for having the hands lower and milling (in the 'traditional' style), rather than the fights just becoming modern boxing or savate combat.
Perhaps a judogi, or other thick jacket could be worn (to allow more jujitsu technique)?
Then newaza/groundwork could be included as a separate thing (or mixed in, all depends on what people want and are prepared to do).
The format/s, like life (and Bartitsu?) itself, is still a work in progress.... Emoticono smile
I'm most keen to try and 'please everyone' to some degree with this, whatever their interest in Bartitsu, yet I know in practice that might be difficult!
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